Would The Classpad 330 Be A Good Fit For Me ?

Let me start by saying that I don't feel too particularly biased toward any certain brand of calculator. I'm a 44 year old computer programmer with a degree in electrical engineering technology. I jumped right into programming without doing any professional work with my engineering degree. Also, I was never the quickest kid to catch on to the math involved although I managed to do average. I eventually catch on but it just takes me longer.

My goal is to jump back into my old college textbooks and learn everything I once knew but since have forgotton. I actually consider this to be fun but my wife thinks it sounds like agony :-) Obviously, all the electrical engineering concepts rely heavily on math. As far as the math I want to relearn, here are some of the classes I had before ( book titles ):

* Fundamentals of Algebra and Trig ( hard to remember - I think one semester )
* Technical Calculus with Analytic Geometry ( 3 semesters ).

The latter I think covered everything up to partial derivitives, first order and higher order differential equations, laplace transforms and fourier series.

I had a Radio Shack EC-4020 calculator ( rebranded Casio fx-4000p ) in college that I loved. It was easy to use and if memory serves, easy to program. That was back in the late 1980s.

I'd like a graphing calculator with these attributes:

* Not too terribly difficult to learn ( I'm okay with a medium learning curve )
* Has all the features I need for my goal
* I'm not particular on the size or shape as I'm probably not going to use it anywhere but home
* Nice ledgeable screen.
* Robust programming features
* CAS

I'd say the classpad might have most of those attributes although I'm not sure how ledgable the screen is. That is one of the few things that the TI Inspire has that I really wish the other major players ( Classpad 330 and HP50-g ) had. A really modern and easy to read screen. Which to me means grayscale, good contrast and high resolution. Not sure if grayscale and high contrast have to be mutually exclusive or not, but you get what I mean.

Things I don't like about the Classpad 330:

* The screen: In this age of iPods, Nintendo DS and so on, it sure seems the screen could be much better. But I'm not sure if my gripe is unfounded. I mean, in truth I know this doesn't really affect the math but on the other hand presentation is important to me.
* Missing ENG feature ?: I may be wrong, but my impression is that this is missing. Meaning, the ability to format results in terms of exponents incremented or decremented by 3. But perhaps I am mistaken and when people are griping about the missing units feature they really want the ability to designate specific types of units. I'm not really sure.

I think I would like the touch screen but would have to try it to be sure. But in theory, I think it's a great feature.

The TI Inspire, while it looks like it has a beautiful screen ( from the screenshots I can find on the web ) doesn't have very good programming abilities, is missing 3D graphing, Laplace and Fourier abilities. But I think that you can get 3rd party addons that allow you to do those. But the programming will probably be forever crippled.

The HP50g looks comperable to the Classpad. I am wondering if the reason so many people are tempted by the Nspire is basically the screen. I have to admit it is tempting but I'm not sure if I will need the missing features in order to reach my goals

1.)Programing the nspire is quite difficult and probably won't get any better but you have programing experience so you might do ok there.
2.)Third part programs are sometimes third rate being originated by who knows, and with who knows what kind of bugs, and usually without much if any support. So you are just rolling the dice when you rely on third part programs. Who are you going to call if you have a problem attempting to download and use a third party program???
3.)As for the Classpad's screen, I never had any trouble and don't understand your concern.

3.)As for the Classpad's screen, I never had any trouble and don't understand your concern.

All I can go by on the screen are youtube videos and the Casio website. It's not a bad looking screen. Certainly for 2003 it was really good. And I realize they improved the contrast in 2005 significantly.

Still, it's not a great looking screen. For 2010 it should be better.

I wouldn't really want color. Just grayscale and higher resolution. I agree that's it's not necessary but to me it would be nice. But for now we have the 330 screen as it is so I understand that I need to shut up about it Also, if I had one right in front of me I would probably find the screen just fine as it is.

Also, if I had one right in front of me I would probably find the screen just fine as it is.

With a calculator you are just seeing numbers, symbols and letters, not pictures or vidos, so what is the point of having gray scale? How would seeing 2x+3y-z=0 be anybetter in gray scale? I think color would be nice, especially for 3d graphing but gray scale doesn't have any benefit in calculators except for games but with the limited nspire programing it simply is not suitable for significant games.

I want to say a little more about 3rd party software. When ever I bring up the fact that nspire lacks the math capability that Classpad and the HP50g have, someone always brushes that problem aside and says "Thats not a problem. You can get third party software for that." So I ask what is the customer service number for the third party software and they go very silent. So lets take a deeper look at the situation. There are a lot of amatuer programers publishing third part software. Just go to ticalc.org and you will see lots of it. Some third party software is good and some isn't. Some of it is very clean and some of it isn't. So what is your time worth, that is, if you have to spend time trying to contact the author of some third party software and deal with a problem because the documentation is non-existant, or you can't get the software installed, or it has a bug, or you are getting a questionable answer, you are pretty quickly going to decide that third party software is just not the answer. With software put out by the manufacturere, you get customer service, and the maker has people working on software problems, with third party software, you might find that the author died, left town, or just plain doesn't have any interest in the problems he/she generated and therefore disconnected his or her phone. So I say this to anyone who relies on third party software - good luck because you are going to need it!

HP 50g is more suitable for an engineer.
This professional sotware is of great value to mathematicians, physicists and electrical engineers: http://www.heuson-so...e/heusoneng.htm

Civil Engineering software:

FEM48/49
http://www.hpcalc.or...ils.php?id=4515
Caspar Lugtmeier

The premier structural analysis software for both the 48G and 49/50 series calculators. Its ease of use, flexibility, power and capabilities combined in one package are not seen in any other program available, either commercially or as freeware. FEM48/49 solves frames, trusses and continuous beams. Includes wizards for geometry, sections and loads. Links to SED48/49 database. An extensive manual is included. Completely written in SysRPL. SR6 has been adapted for the larger screen of the 49g+ and 50g.

VigaG
http://www.hpcalc.or...ils.php?id=3295
Edwin Córdoba

Structural analysis program for all types of beams.

COGO-50
http://www.hpcalc.or...ils.php?id=6575
Jacob Wall

Surveying program capable of performing common survey calculations. The program handles multiple user created jobs and performs Traverse, Inverse, Area, Offset Intersection, Compass Rule Adjustment, Scale, Move, Rotate, Transform, Import and Export ASCII files, and more with coordinates created. Allows settings for angular measure (grads or degrees (dec or hms)) and features a number of tools such as a triangle solver, horizontal and vertical curve solvers, linear regression tool and more. Includes PDF manual. Written in mostly User RPL for the 49g+ and 50g.
COGO-50 supports multiple user created jobs and allows the user to choose angular measure for input including degrees, decimal or DD.mmss, or grads. Some of the capabilites include:

* Traverse - including bearing-bearing, bearing-distance, distance-bearing, or distance-distance intersections
* Inverse - including inversing points, a curve, an angle, or inversing a point to a line
* Enter and Assign Coordinates
* Offset Intersections
* Area by point numbers
* Compass Rule/Bowditch Adjustment
* Rotate, Move, Scale point coordinates
* Transform (2D Helmerts) point coordinates from one coordinate system to another
* Triangle Solver, Vertical and Horizontal Curve Solver
* Linear Regression
* Level Run
* Calculate Inaccessible point with two sets of horizontal and vertical angles
* Import and Export coordinates

GEO-50
http://www.hpcalc.or...ils.php?id=6671
Jacob Wall

GEO-50 accepts DD.mmss as angular input and allows the user to choose from three ellipsoids to base calculations on: GRS80, WGS84 and the Clarke 1866 Spheroid. Performs coordinate transformations, convergence calculations, 3D inverse, meridional arc length calculations, computations on the ellipsoid surface, and spherical triangle solving. Version 1.2 fixes a number of bugs and adds a new spherical triangle solver. Includes PDF manual. Some of the capabilites include:

* Coordinate transformations including UTM to geodetic, geodetic to UTM, geodetic to geocentric, geocentric to geodetic, as well as some spherical and local coordinate transformations
* Convergence calculations including spherical and UTM convergence (UTM convergence can be calculated from either UTM or geodetic coordinates)
* 3D Inverse between UTM, geodetic and geocentric coordinates
* Calculate meridinal arc length given latitude (geodetic, geocentric or parametric), or calculate geodetic latitude with known arc length
* Direct or Inverse computations on the ellipsoid surface (Bowring's equations)
* Spherical Triangle Solverng.htm[/url]

HP 49g+/50g Land Surveying Software
http://surv50.ca/index.html

Precision Surveying Solutions - DC50
http://www.pssllc.com/

Edited by supergems, 04 June 2010 - 01:21 PM.

* Missing ENG feature ?: I may be wrong, but my impression is that this is missing. Meaning, the ability to format results in terms of exponents incremented or decremented by 3. But perhaps I am mistaken and when people are griping about the missing units feature they really want the ability to designate specific types of units. I'm not really sure.

In RPN mode HP 50g can emulate CASIO's ENG key : http://groups.google...dd37b4899dbbec/

ex.

real numbers
0.01 'ENG\->' 10.E-3 'ENG\->' 10000.E-6 'ENG\->' 10000000.E-9 'ENG\->' 10000000000.E-12
0.01 'ENG\<-' 10.E-3 'ENG\<-' .01E0 'ENG\<-' .00001E3 'ENG\<-' .00000001E6 'ENG\<-' .00000000001E9

real numbers with unit
'1_m' 'U\->' '1000._mm' 'U\->' '1000000._\Gmm' ('\Gm' = 'μ' = micro)
'1_m' 'U\<-' '.001_km' 'U\<-' '.000001_Mm' ('k' = kilo, 'M' = mega)

Here is a prime example of the kind of thing I was talking about when I suggested avoiding third party software.
HEUSON SOFTWARE

In order to buy their software, (which assumes the whole thing is not just a scam and they actually do sell and ship working software), I have to use money that is described by a capitol C with an equals sign in the middle. They don't take credit cards and I have to do a bank transfer to the account of their company, which I have never heard of and no one that I know has ever heard of, and then trust them to ship the software, and that may or may not occur. In addition if it does occur, the software may or may not work. Of course if I have trouble with the transaction or product I then have to call or e-mail Germany and they can simply ignore me because they have no presence in my country, and of course it may be necessary to speak German if someone does answer the phone. Clearly doing business that way is just asking for trouble. Once they have my money, I have no recourse. Only an idiot is going to do business that way but of course there are plenty of idiots in the world, so good luck because you are going to need it if you do business with aftermarket software providers. As for myself, I don't enjoy worrying so I'll stick to using what the calculator companies provide and since nspire lacks what the Classpad and Hp50g provide, I'll avoid nspire. Obviously others should think very carefully before they count on aftermarket software to make up for what nspire lacks.

Here is a prime example of the kind of thing I was talking about when I suggested avoiding third party software.
HEUSON SOFTWARE

In order to buy their software, (which assumes the whole thing is not just a scam and they actually do sell and ship working software), I have to use money that is described by a capitol C with an equals sign in the middle. They don't take credit cards and I have to do a bank transfer to the account of their company, which I have never heard of and no one that I know has ever heard of, and then trust them to ship the software, and that may or may not occur. In addition if it does occur, the software may or may not work. Of course if I have trouble with the transaction or product I then have to call or e-mail Germany and they can simply ignore me because they have no presence in my country, and of course it may be necessary to speak German if someone does answer the phone. Clearly doing business that way is just asking for trouble. Once they have my money, I have no recourse. Only an idiot is going to do business that way but of course there are plenty of idiots in the world, so good luck because you are going to need it if you do business with aftermarket software providers. As for myself, I don't enjoy worrying so I'll stick to using what the calculator companies provide and since nspire lacks what the Classpad and Hp50g provide, I'll avoid nspire. Obviously others should think very carefully before they count on aftermarket software to make up for what nspire lacks.

I've purchased goods this way plenty of times ... I didn't even get internet access until 1997 and a card with VISA on it a few years later, this is most likely a reputable small business and I don't think doing business without giving 20%-30% to a credit-card company is stupid, in fact built into the credit card company charges is the margin needed to cover the actions of really stupid people and profit on top of that ... it's just not that visible when you use credit card or paypal because companies are required to hide the true cost. You can be your own transaction insurer by being carefull and dropping 20% on top of everything you spend in a savings account ... over time you'll make a decent profit because there's a moron born every day and they all have lots of credit cards (Provided you can get the transaction done without incurring huge bank-fees).

My experience doing business with individual programmers and small business is that the service often is much better and insightfull than what you'd get talking to a customer care representative of a large corporation.

The argument of not relying to heavily on 3rd party software is a sound one, because it's likely not as integrated in the unit itself.

Edited by TovAre, 04 June 2010 - 07:00 PM.

Here is a prime example of the kind of thing I was talking about when I suggested avoiding third party software.
HEUSON SOFTWARE

In order to buy their software, (which assumes the whole thing is not just a scam and they actually do sell and ship working software), I have to use money that is described by a capitol C with an equals sign in the middle. They don't take credit cards and I have to do a bank transfer to the account of their company, which I have never heard of and no one that I know has ever heard of, and then trust them to ship the software, and that may or may not occur. In addition if it does occur, the software may or may not work. Of course if I have trouble with the transaction or product I then have to call or e-mail Germany and they can simply ignore me because they have no presence in my country, and of course it may be necessary to speak German if someone does answer the phone. Clearly doing business that way is just asking for trouble. Once they have my money, I have no recourse. Only an idiot is going to do business that way but of course there are plenty of idiots in the world, so good luck because you are going to need it if you do business with aftermarket software providers. As for myself, I don't enjoy worrying so I'll stick to using what the calculator companies provide and since nspire lacks what the Classpad and Hp50g provide, I'll avoid nspire. Obviously others should think very carefully before they count on aftermarket software to make up for what nspire lacks.

In my opinion you do too many problems! It's true that do not use credit card or paypal is uncomfortable today, but it is absolutely false that is less safe!
Also, I bought last year SCIENCE-PACK and was very happy. I can guarantee that Clemens Heuson is a very valuable UserRPL programmer and very helpful in resolving the requests for help. You simply respect my testimony!
Yesterday I ordered ELECTRO-PACK which will come to me next week for sure.

HEUSON-SOFTWARE is absolutely reliable.

The Casio and TI graphing calculators can not boast a such range of professional software!

P.S. In 2008 I requested Clemens Heuson writing a circuit simulator and after two years he has released ELECTRO-PACK.

Last but not least, I'm not an idiot!

Edited by supergems, 05 June 2010 - 10:27 AM.

With a calculator you are just seeing numbers, symbols and letters, not pictures or vidos, so what is the point of having gray scale? How would seeing 2x+3y-z=0 be anybetter in gray scale? I think color would be nice, especially for 3d graphing but gray scale doesn't have any benefit in calculators except for games but with the limited nspire programing it simply is not suitable for significant games.

I thought about it more and I think I know why I had a concern with the screen. Basically it boils down to the screenshots I can find online for the Nspire and Classpad. Nearly all the Classpad images look something like the ones on This official page. And the official page for the Nspire has images that look like this. There is a huge difference here ( to me ) and what with the jaggies on the characters, icons and the graphs, honestly it looks like it might be difficult to read. But I found a rarer image of the Classpad like this today where the quality is much better ( and it's a 300 model ). I'm assuming I need to chalk up my earlier concerns to sloppy marketing on the Casio website because this particular image is quite respectable and I don't have a problem with the screen at all now. Still not as pretty ( to me ) as the Nspire but not a thing wrong with it.

About your comment about the gray scale: I was chalking up what I initially noticed in the difference in quality to the lack of gray scale abilities basically because that's the only reason I could imagine ( other than resolution ). So at this point in light of seeing a better quality Classpad image I am unsure what difference adding gray scale ability to a future Classpad model might make. However, I would think that it could add dithering and make fonts easier to read or at least easier on the eyes. And obviously, graphs could be easier to read with better shading.

I get your point about the 3'rd party software and probably most would agree that we'd like to have the features built in. That will factor in when I choose a calculator. I am guessing that you've had experiences with 3'rd party software not being up to par. There's probably a little good and bad out there. Still, I'm glad people are out there working on 3'rd party enhancements. Nice to have options even if it pays to be cautious.

Nobody's commented on the programming of the Classpad. My impression is that there are 2 built in languages: CP Basic and the SDK. And someone ( 3rd party ) has written CP LUA using the SDK. Basic is limited and slow but not as limited as the Nspire. CP LUA is the preferred language. Programming abilities of the Classpad are on par with the HP 50g. Are these impressions correct ?

Nobody's commented on the programming of the Classpad. My impression is that there are 2 built in languages: CP Basic and the SDK. And someone ( 3rd party ) has written CP LUA using the SDK. Basic is limited and slow but not as limited as the Nspire. CP LUA is the preferred language. Programming abilities of the Classpad are on par with the HP 50g. Are these impressions correct ?

Regarding the programmability the HP 50g beats competitors:

HP Basic
UserRPL
SystemRPL
HPLua
Saturn assembly
ARM assembly
C/C++

Calculator Benchmark
http://www.hpmuseum....es.cgi?read=700

Calculator Benchmark: Loops of addition
http://www.hpmuseum....s.cgi?read=1002

ClassPad is the best for graphics:
http://www.classpad....n/napoleon.html
http://www.classpad....ns/2Dgraphs.php
http://www.classpad....ns/3Dgraphs.php

http://www.classpad....ns/3Dgraphs.php

Thank you for posting that link that shows some really good 3d capabilities that the Classpad has. Some of the screen shots are truly awesome and I think that if everyone could see those shots before buying a calculator, I don't think TI would sell a single nspire or nspire cas model. Clearly Classpad has the best 3d capability of any calculator and I hope Casio will make it even better buy using a color screen and plotting multiple surfaces at the same time which is not to hard to pull off.

Some one mentioned other sites and ti calculator sites. I just discovered this one and much to my surprize it doesn't have any glowing reports about the nspire.
http://forum.ticalcs...id=7717#pid7717

After reading the posts "Do Calcs In Polar Form" and "Classpad 330 Electrical Calculations" I got a little dismayed about using the Classpad for EE purposes. One of the first textbooks I'd be going back through would be circuit analysis and would rely heavily on operations against polar and rectangle values. It looks like there may be a work around but still a pain in the .... So for now I'll just wait it out and see if any new graphing calcs come out this summer/fall. If not I may just purchase an HP50G. Or maybe Casio will upgrade the software and improve this. Who knows.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. It really did help.

After reading the posts "Do Calcs In Polar Form" and "Classpad 330 Electrical Calculations" I got a little dismayed about using the Classpad for EE purposes. One of the first textbooks I'd be going back through would be circuit analysis and would rely heavily on operations against polar and rectangle values. It looks like there may be a work around but still a pain in the .... So for now I'll just wait it out and see if any new graphing calcs come out this summer/fall. If not I may just purchase an HP50G. Or maybe Casio will upgrade the software and improve this. Who knows.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. It really did help.

It's been a long time since the OP wrote this thread, but I recently bought a Classpad and wanted to add my impressions for new people reading.

The images on the Casio site, which look like something from an excellent backlit lcd, are frankly nothing at all like the display on my Classpad. After buying it, I hardly use it because I can't see the display without turning my chair and tilting the calculator so that the light hits it exactly right. In a room with a lot of very bright light overhead, you might be okay. I can put my HP-50G right next to it where I usually work, and there is a huge difference. The HP is usable; the Classpad is just too awkward. I've tried removing the screen protector, but it still isn't as legible as I need it.

This is strange to me because this is their most powerful and sophisticated such device, and they've had technology to do small backlit color touchscreens for over ten years at Casio.

I also see the problem others have mentioned with polar math. I tried it several ways. There is an 'E-activity' online and I tried to exactly copy the formats there, using matrices, brackets, the angle sign with and without parentheses and degree marks, whatever, trying to do arithmetic using numbers in polar form doesn't seem doable.

I don't like that no one from Casio ever commented about the way to use polar math on 'casiocalc.org'.

Programmability is not very comparable; for one thing, being able to use RPG on an HP is a big plus for quickly writing functions and programs. The Classpad user interface with its many pull down menus and dragging of equations around and integrated graphics and tables, etc. is very nice (except, again, the display is so weak), and you can easily add functions to the Classpad user catalog. But you cannot easily add things to that nice menu system, etc from what I've seen without using an SDK separately on a computer and putting a lot of time into it. The HP interface is more primitive, but you can easily add to everything you normally see including input menus and little apps with a few commands and lists. I think this was their intentional design philosophy.

I hope Casio will put out a backlit model, perhaps with adjustable size fonts. I would still miss having RPG, but this would completely change the usability of the device from my viewpoint.

In the message above, by "RPG" I meant "RPN" of course. I would also add with respect to programmability that having the softkey menu and being able to make heirarchical directories to structure your work and quickly put programs and functions in them with only "<<" and ">>" is very nice on the HP.

I would like to see a comparable way to quickly add to the Classpad menu system, including my own heirarchical menu structure. Please comment if this can be done and I have missed it. Otherwise, I hope the next model might have something similar.